The Hidden Labor Behind Recipes

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Listen to the episode by clicking the player above and scroll down to read a partial transcript of Soleil Ho and Justin Phillips’ conversation with Julia Turshen.

Here is a partial transcript of Soleil Ho and Justin Phillips’ interview with Julia Turshen, edited and condensed for clarity.

SOLEIL:
We look forward to speaking to you today. We don’t really have that many cookbook authors on the show, unfortunately. And it’s such an important part of the food media industry complex that we can get so much into it, so I’m really excited.

JULIA: No, thank you very much for having me! I definitely spend most of my time in this weird corner of the cookbook world, but it’s part of this bigger thing and I feel like the two of you do such a good job talking about all these different aspects of the bigger thing. So whatever I can add to the conversation, I’m happy, thank you for having me!

SOLEIL: Can you describe your corner?

JULIA: For sure! I feel like I had a really interesting experience compared to a lot of other cookbook authors I know because I’ve worked on a lot of other cookbooks besides my own. And I made my own too! Most of the people that I think are doing one or the other of these two things, and I have to do both, and when you add up all of these books, I’ve been working on 15 books in about as many years. so that means [working with] A bunch of editors, a bunch of photographers, a bunch of publicists – it was like a whole page of cookbooks that I don’t think we always think about – so I’ve worked with basically a ton of people on a ton of books and i learned a lot. Does that give you a good feeling for the corner? I don’t know, I feel like I’m talking too much …

SOLEIL: I think that does a great job just sketching it out, especially for listeners who have never interacted with the cookbook world other than using a cookbook. There’s a lot of politics and hierarchy going on, and certain parts of the food media are sexier than others. And I also think that as someone who has been so productive in the world of cookbook writing, I sure went through the alarm clock and seen all sorts of … things …

JULIA: That is definitely correct. I can look back now and see how broken a lot of things were, but you know, I’ve only been in the publishing industry and the food media like all of those things. I am also seeing so many positives and now I am very hopeful about a lot of things. It’s interesting because I think most people interact with cookbooks the way you say it, like maybe pick one up at the bookstore in the library or see one in a magazine you read and maybe buy it or check it out . Maybe you can cook a few things out of it. But I imagine you might not have a grasp of all of politics and baseball. It’s the same with any type of business that involves a lot of creative output. I think that’s the same thing where there’s a lot behind the scenes.

JUSTIN: I know how much work goes into creating a cookbook. And I’m always interested in hearing the mechanics of hearing someone like you and talking about how that process goes. Can you let people know what this entails and what would cause burnout? You know? Because that’s a very real thing.

JULIA: I think answering your first question about what goes into making a cookbook answers your second question about why this can lead to burnout.

JUSTIN: Let’s go.

JULIA: Because it’s a lot. It takes a lot of work to make a really good cookbook. And I just mean because, to write recipes that work, to test recipes enough, and to have enough people test them to work in different kitchens that have all sorts of variables including, you know: My pan could be smaller than yours, my knife could be sharper than yours, or my oven could get hotter than yours … To accommodate all of these variables and still produce recipes that work, to answer readers’ questions before they even knowing it is theirs to think about how ingredients are labeled in the grocery store and reflect those things in the way you write down the ingredients and your list of ingredients in the recipe. I think about how big the packages are, how big the containers are at the grocery store because I don’t want to ask for an amount where you have to buy two when you can only buy one … so take all of these you know that there is a lot of detail taken into account to ensure that there is nothing in the photo when you take the photo that is not in the recipe … it’s a mountain of detail. And I’m talking about micro-things here, but at the macro level, it’s just a lot to create a whole directory of contents and things … it’s a lot.

SOLEIL: So how does it start?

JULIA: It starts with the book proposal, which I like to think of as the business plan for the book. If you’ve ever written a business plan for something else, if you’ve ever just made a plan for something else, a class schedule or whatever, then this is exactly what the book proposal is for. You are basically creating this document that explains what the book is, who you are, why you are the right person for what is in this book, your table of contents with the recipes.

For me, my favorite part of any project is making this table of contents because it’s when I feel most creative. They include some sample recipes and things. Maybe you indicate who else is on your team … maybe we already know the photographer. And then hopefully your agent will take this book proposal and sell it to a publisher. And that’s the ideal scenario.

Then you will receive your book advance, which is the money you will be given upfront to make your book and sometimes that is not enough to make the book you want to make. Sometimes it is enough for a few people … It takes about two years from the suggestion to the booking on your shelf. And the first year is all content creation, writing, testing and photography. The next year is typically spent editing and going through many rounds of editing and then many drafting rounds, arranging all of the pages. Much of the second year is spent just waiting for it, I don’t know what the book is usually printed on, and much of the second year is also spent planning advertising. You did this thing, the publisher invested in this thing. How are they supposed to earn the money back? Will they make the money back? And that includes reaching out to both of you to see if you’re talking to someone like me on your podcast.